Curse

Kattar · Oct 21, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Chico was perma'd because he was using a multiloader and playing both red and blue, thus manipulating the match results.

Using a multiloader is not a bannable offense, as long as you're not manipulating match outcomes ala rawr. Apparently that's where they draw the line.

FREDtheDINOSAUR · Oct 21, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Find where they say that RR is a bannable offense for me, please.

1st line. Here ya go:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rules of Conduct

The following rules govern basic interaction within the Guild Wars game and the Guild Wars websites. Please be aware that failure to comply with these rules of conduct may result in the termination of your Guild Wars game account according to the Guild Wars User Agreement.

Sorry, but like I said, it's in there.

And, again, I agree with you. This whole situation is bullshit, but "technically" and legally they have the right to ban people for this.

gone · Oct 21, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

^even better

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Find where they say that RR is a bannable offense for me, please.

Quote:

14. TERMINATION

(a) NC Interactive reserves the right to suspend or terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or willfully infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game(s) as described in the Rules of Conduct.

Should NC Interactive decide to suspend or terminate this Agreement with a User under any circumstances, the User will lose access to your Account.

(b) You agree that if the Service or your Account is suspended, terminated or cancelled for any reason or length of time, you are not entitled to any reimbursement or refund of any fees or unused access time.

pretty powerful words that we all agree to.
taken from
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/EULA/User_Agreement

/edit also this

Quote:

You agree that NC Interactive may take whatever steps it deems necessary to abridge, or prevent behavior of any sort on the Service in its sole discretion, without notice to you.

Chico · Oct 21, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

Chico was perma'd because he was using a multiloader and playing both red and blue, thus manipulating the match results.

Using a multiloader is not a bannable offense, as long as you're not manipulating match outcomes ala rawr. Apparently that's where they draw the line.

Multiloader -> Yes.
Not once I landed on a map against myself.

I've been thinking about it and I think I know what they think is bot behavior. After a couple hours instead of waiting to be taken back to the HB map and then map to GTOB if I saw the "HB quest updated" message sometimes I could beat the timer that would take me back to the HB outpost and map before that to GTOB. I started doing that near to the time when they kicked my account. They actually kicked me out of the game with the message "Your logging credentials have expired" and something they can also see in the logs (but blindly ignore and won't acknowledge) is that I immediately tried to log in again and that's when I took the screenshot of the screen with the ban message.

How can they ignore that I tried to log in immediatley after?
How can they ignore the screenshot? (will probably post it here, I don't care)
How can they ignore I was chatting with guildies at the time it happened? (guildies could step in and testify but I won't ask them to as Anet has the logs and doesn't care)

Too many things to ignore that no bot would ever be able to do.
Their heuristics are flawed regardless of how many rubrics they use in detection they ignore the most obvious ones that identify a human behind the keyboard.

Can a bot become increasingly better? Change behavior? Get tired and become slow/slowdown reaction time? Chat? Respond to messages appropriately? Lol/Discuss RRDay in outposts? Impatiently move while waiting (left, right, north, south, etc, etc)?

Anet you should review and improve your bot detection mechanisms. They fail to detect bergen bots (just go there at any point in time) but missdetect real humans. Saying that your detection is flawless is impossible. It failed, it detected me. Whoever took the decision to kick me didn't bother to login, force a fight with me, ask me a question, even if it was "walk straight along this line then do xxx emote". Without human to human validation, or a simple pm to check "are you there?" "are you human?" your whole bot detection is a failure.

/rant

Here's an idea: Add a captcha. Ask a multiple choice question. Make a small challenge no bot can solve/do but that humans can't miss.
Good idea, yes?

MMSDome · Oct 21, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by FREDtheDINOSAUR

1st line. Here ya go:

Sorry, but like I said, it's in there.

And, again, I agree with you. This whole situation is bullshit, but "technically" and legally they have the right to ban people for this.

Maybe I can't read but it says nothing about red resign.

Chocobo1 · Oct 21, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico

Anet you should review and improve your bot detection mechanisms. They fail to detect bergen bots (just go there at any point in time) but missdetect real humans. ?

This is why I'm actually afraid to farm at Bergen. Don't wanna be mistaken for a bot.

As for your situation, thats really disapointing. I'd get my guildies to complain, I'd do virtually anything I could to get my account back.

Chico · Oct 21, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

This is why I'm actually afraid to farm at Bergen. Don't wanna be mistaken for a bot.

As for your situation, thats really disapointing. I'd get my guildies to complain, I'd do virtually anything I could to get my account back.

There's no reason to involve anyone else. How can they know if they are lying or telling the truth? Besides, they have logs and can see my actions on all accounts. They could even see, if they wanted to, that I'm active on one account at a time and that I warned my guildies about the ban immediatly after I saw what happened. They can read that already. It is impossible for me for example (or anyone) to be keyboard moving at the same time on multiple accounts and I never mouse-click to move. I could click one to do something (like enter battle) then move on to the next, then move on to the next, then start/continue chatting on my main account. Can keyboard walking/moving (QWEASD + CTRL + SHFT) be confused with bot behavior? I don't think bots would use the keyboard to walk around. But they ignored that too.

AtomicMew · Oct 21, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

So in conclusion:

1) A.net screwed up BIG TIME and I mean like MONSTROUSLY big and retroactively calls everyone cheaters.

2) Fanboyism represents a HUGE ORGASM to a few folks in this this thread, since they apparently can't let it go.

3) A.net then goes to ban a select few lottery winners.

4) lol e-drama $$$$$$

Sad-funny but not unexpected in the least.

Arkantos · Oct 22, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

If you believe it was/is an exploit/cheat, we're not going from zero to ban are we? we're going from the EULA to player.

/edit
and I hope you (all) know. it's not the guy who did this 4 or 5 times and left that I consider the exploiter (even though s/he is). it's the people who did this HUNDREDS of times over many months. if you try to tell me they didn't know it wasn't a cheat or an exploit, i've got a bridge to sell you in San Fran, and they opossum'd you all.

/edit2
even if we can lay blame fully on anet for not taking immediate action, does that still give people the right to hide behind numbers and not be punished?

Again, stop looking at it like it's black and white and hiding behind the EULA. You claim we've had a fair warning. Tell me, in the last 3 years, when was the last time ANet told the community that manipulating hero battles in this way was a bannable offense? They didn't when /rolling went on, they didn't when they removed /roll, they didn't when red resign started, they didn't when it became popular, they didn't when there were dozens of districts, they waited for weeks until it became very popular. That my friend, is going from zero to ban.

Stop looking at this from a EULA nazi point of view and look at it from your average players point of view. Red resign was accepted by the community. When you're an average, casual player, you head over to hero battles on the day and see everyone doing it, you think it's an acceptable thing and not an exploit. Seeing as ANet did not say a word about it, there is absolutely nothing to let them know what they're doing is exploiting.

People shouldn't get banned because of ANet's lack of communication for 3 years. Yes, these players violated the EULA, but that doesn't mean they should be punished. ANet have bent the EULA many times before, might as well do it here as well.

Skyy High · Oct 22, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Retroactively? Gaile posted on the wiki (and it was copied all over the forums) well before RR day that it constitutes match manipulation, and therefore cheating. No ambiguities, no nothing. What else do you want them to do, put an announcement on the front page? Yeah, that'd work great; it'd be like the cops putting a big sign up in a shady part of town: "DON'T BUY CRACK HERE. IT'S TRUE THAT YOU CAN INDEED BUY CRACK HERE, AND IT'S TRUE THAT WE CAN'T REALLY CATCH THAT MANY OF YOU, BUT SERIOUSLY, DON'T DO IT." And face it, pretty much anyone who cares enough about GW to spend a full day doing nothing but RR-ing is probably pretty darn active on the forums and/or wiki; that's probably where they got the idea from in the first place.

@ The above: BWAHAHAHA, a casual player RR-ing, yeah, that sounds real casual. "I only have a few hours of free time each week, so I'm going to do fritter away my only free time with repetitive, boring BS because I'm stuck to the forums enough to know that it's the best way to make money fast right now."

QueenofDeath · Oct 22, 2009, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

I think you need to stop being an ANet fanboy and look at the big picture here. RR day has been going on for weeks. Not once has ANet said anything about it. Yes, it's against the EULA. So is what rawr did in the monthly. How can you punish the thousands of players who participated in 'manipulating' a ladder that's going to be removed this week, but not do shit to players who manipulated something that mattered? No, I'm not saying that 'oh they got away with manipulating something that mattered so I can manipulate something that means shit all to ANet and get away with it', I'm saying that's not quite the message you want to be sending out to your community. ANet, stop playing favorites

Well in defense of Anet what Rawr did didn't hurt the community as a whole as 1000's do exploiting this issue and reaping 100's of thousands of coins into their accounts. How much did Rawr get with what they did? How many got something? How did it overall effect the whole community? So stop being a fanboy of your own agenda and look at the overall picture as a whole. What is the saying in war? The lives of the many are worth the eventual victory of the war, one can lose the battle and still win the war, and they are expendable. It's like you coming into "my house" and then doing things you know full well by my house rules and even common rules of conduct and life you are not suppose to do. Now, you had been coming to my house and doing them for a very long time, but, I finally caught you doing it...what do you think I'm going to do? I told you not to leave the toilet seat up.

)

DreamWind · Oct 22, 2009, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flubber

you know. the ones who are smart enough to band together, by the thousands, and exploit/cheat but then claim they had no idea it was wrong. because no one told them.

that community.

A lot of your posts are trolling, but this post is spot on. If people did not know it was exploiting, they are retarded. The excuse that "everybody else is doing it" does not fly. That is like saying since everybody else is speeding so can I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMS Dome

And at above poster. It is not a bug, cheat, or exploit for the simple fact that the game allowed you to do it.

LoL...talk about bad logic. The game allowed you to dupe before as well...are you saying THAT wasn't a bug, cheat, or exploit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMS Dome

In short A-Net caused RR.

This is correct. That doesn't mean just because they accidently created it means it is ok for everybody to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMS Dome

why is there still a discussion on this topic???

Because it is an example of:

A. Anet RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing up again (bad communication, unrestricted abuse in their game with little to no response or fix)

B. The sadness of the community (nothing more than farmers)

Just because Anet is going to obliterate this particular problem doesn't mean A and B don't exist. This is simply another example of A and B existing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If you want to blame something, blame it on ANet's lack of simple communication skills. I know they're busy, but it doesn't take much effort at all to let players know what they're doing is bannable before thousands of players begin doing it for weeks.

We all know Anet is very slow to work. Besides, they shouldn't NEED to put a big post on the main page and on the title screen and etc. Anet has already communicated it several times. Not just in the EULA, but in the form of "match manipulation is a bannable offense". This type of thing has happened before several times (in high profile ways). To think that people thought this was different because it was HB and everybody else was doing it is laughable. It was nothing more than a large exploiting mob.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMS Dome

Find where they say that RR is a bannable offense for me, please.

Match manipulation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

People shouldn't get banned because of ANet's lack of communication for 3 years.

Anet's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up is the reason they won't get banned. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have gotten banned if things were run better.

Martin Alvito · Oct 22, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

ANet can ban people whenever they want, for whatever reason, and hide behind the EULA. It'll stick for all practical purposes. They built the sandbox, we bought a license to rent space, and they're free to revoke that license at any time under the contract for almost any reason.

However, some of you seem incapable of accepting the following proposition:

Just because they can use the banstick does not imply that they should.

I see several cogent arguments on why the banstick is a stupid reaction to this problem. The common thread in these arguments is that ANet took a clear public stance for a long time, then suddenly reversed that stance without fair warning to anyone but the hardcore player that visits fansites and the wiki.

I see several discombobulated, rambling, incoherent arguments about why this issue merited a ban. I also see a lot of people trying to use the EULA to defend bans. If you want to argue that a ban was needed, you need a theory of bans. What makes this bannable where previous "exploits" such as HM Urgoz farming, the new Nightfall charater trick, and so forth were not worthy of bans?

If all you're going to do is hide behind the "match manipulation" clause in the EULA, may I again remind you that this clause enables ANet to ban but doesn't mean that they should. People manipulated HB tournaments with intentional draws all the time. This went unenforced for ages until it happened in a GvG. Even then it didn't result in permabans.

What makes RR (and other bannable offenses) actually worth banning? Nobody except the legalists will take the legalists seriously without an argument here.

DreamWind · Oct 22, 2009, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Just because they can use the banstick does not imply that they should.

Of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

What makes this bannable where previous "exploits" such as HM Urgoz farming, the new Nightfall charater trick, and so forth were not worthy of bans?

Exploiting the game is a bannable offense, period. But I agree with your assessment that not all exploits should be bannable. If the exploit has little to no affect on gameplay, or the game as a whole, or if the exploit is very minor, then Anet can simply fix the problem with no penalty.

But RR is something different. It was a mass exploit that had major impacts on the game. RR was more destructive to Guild Wars than 90% of the exploits in the history of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If all you're going to do is hide behind the "match manipulation" clause in the EULA, may I again remind you that this clause enables ANet to ban but doesn't mean that they should. People manipulated HB tournaments with intentional draws all the time. This went unenforced for ages until it happened in a GvG. Even then it didn't result in permabans.

All of these things should have been enforced, but Anet was too lazy (or unknowing?) to do so. Just because Anet hasn't enforced this rule that has been in place for ages in every case doesn't mean the rule SHOULDN'T be enforced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin Alvito

What makes RR (and other bannable offenses) actually worth banning?

The effects on the game.

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 22, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But RR is something different. It was a mass exploit that had major impacts on the game. RR was more destructive to Guild Wars than 90% of the exploits in the history of the game.

Most destructive? What the f*** am I missing here? Major impacts on the game? Are we even talking about the same game?

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 22, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

A lot of your posts are trolling, but this post is spot on. If people did not know it was exploiting, they are retarded. The excuse that "everybody else is doing it" does not fly. That is like saying since everybody else is speeding so can I.

Obviously it was an exploit. Since when was it illegal to profit from an exploit? Signet of ghostly might? Remember when they buffed a spell to steal monster skills and everyone was running around like a norn etc? Those were all exploits. Heck, even pve is one big exploit. People use a "tank" and abuse the stupid AI. Running blood spike in gvg is an exploit. Resigning in gvg to a blood spike guild because you don't want to lose is match manipulation and exploiting? Mapping out of RA because you face a sync team is match manipulation?

An exploit becomes a problem when your actions hurt someone else. The RR crap doesn't even have victims.

dansamy · Oct 22, 2009, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But RR is something different. It was a mass exploit that had major impacts on the game. RR was more destructive to Guild Wars than 90% of the exploits in the history of the game.

How did it have a major impact on the game? Unless you were botting RR, a single human player simply would be physically unable to remain at the keyboard for 24 hours straight RRing enough to amass an amount of coins/keys/faction/gold/whatever that would be construed to have a major impact. IMO, duping and mapping to the guild hall from pre-searing had bigger impacts. The majority of players who RRed left with a little extra gold, a few keys and a couple of hours of mindless "fun". Only a small percentage of players who RRed might have amassed a fortune large enough to have an impact on the overall economy of the game.

Martin Alvito · Oct 22, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Glad someone took the bet, and particularly glad that you gave a capable response. Some things still need development.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But RR is something different. It was a mass exploit that had major impacts on the game. RR was more destructive to Guild Wars than 90% of the exploits in the history of the game.

OK, so we're establishing the economy (or threats to it, eg: Ebony Citadel of Mallyx) as a possible condition for using the banstick. I'm with you here. However, we need a threshold condition for what's bannable and what's not. See below.

The obvious second possible condition is directly altering client outputs. Obviously, duping qualifies. Ebony Citadel of Mallyx also qualifies (you weren't supposed to be able to get there).

I think you may be overstating the case for RR a bit. The reason it threatened the economy was because it was permitted to go on for so long. If the exploit had been closed quickly, no harm would have been done.

But it was still an unusually bad exploit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

All of these things should have been enforced, but Anet was too lazy (or unknowing?) to do so. Just because Anet hasn't enforced this rule that has been in place for ages in every case doesn't mean the rule SHOULDN'T be enforced.

This is where a little pragmatism is needed. ANet can't enforce everything. They don't have the manpower on the Support side.

Also, you still want to encourage innovation. The game needs legitimate money-making enterprises. Otherwise, the economy dies. Power traders can't do their thing, so item markets seize up. You need some (preferably low) level of inflation to keep items changing hands.

How do I tell the difference between a legitimate money-making enterprise and an exploit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The effects on the game.

I don't think that we can judge this simply by effects. Duping did ugly things to the economy. But the second-ugliest run of inflation this game has ever seen has resulted from UWSC. I don't think we can make an argument that UWSC is a bannable offense. Needs to be removed? Sure. Bannable? There's a whole can of worms.

Does that mean I get banned for helping develop UWSC in April of '08? How many runs is too many? Do I get away with my involvement because I realized there were more profitable alternatives per unit of time invested (dungeon runs) and did few UWSCs? Or am I as culpable as the nutcases I know that have done literally thousands of runs? Should we ban Fooster for posting the build (at the time) to Guru and sparking the craze?

The other problem with banning by effects is that individual effects rarely matter nearly so much as group effects. For weeks before everyone found out about HM Urgoz I was farming up Zodiacs, Wild Blow testing them, and selling the unid'ds with lousy mods. I would ID the 15^50s, +5s, 20% enchants, 20/20s and +30s, and sold the nicest skins in High End (quickly, certain that this was too good to last). During this time, I definitely impacted supply. I did nothing to item prices. But I was clearly pushing the exploit envelope right to the limit.

There's more to this than effects. If you're messing with the client, you're gone. If you're messing with the economy, maybe you're gone and maybe you're not. What separates those two camps?

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

An exploit becomes a problem when your actions hurt someone else. The RR crap doesn't even have victims.

Progress! RR does have victims - those that had a lot of zkeys (or points to title track) before RR took place, and those that cannot/will not RR. It had HUGE distributional effects.

Actions creating externalities should be a component of the solution. Dungeon runs are fine; they're obviously Pareto-improving trades (makes both parties better off) that impact no one else. RR is bad because it's a Pareto-improving trade that has an externality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

How did it have a major impact on the game? Unless you were botting RR, a single human player simply would be physically unable to remain at the keyboard for 24 hours straight...Only a small percentage of players who RRed might have amassed a fortune large enough to have an impact on the overall economy of the game.

I can't resist sarcasm here. There's this mathematical concept called a summation sequence that you ought to look into. Sort of important in economics, really.

The problem is that item prices are significantly altered when the underlying fundamentals that generate them are changed. Make Zkeys and gold practically free via exploit, and what happens? Ectos become more expensive. You may not personally care, but people with lots of ectos care (got wealthier) and players with lots of zkeys/points to title track care (got relatively poorer).

If you doubt that the economy was affected, the change in ecto prices at the trader and the change in zkey prices on the secondary market should disabuse you.

DreamWind · Oct 22, 2009, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Most destructive? What the f*** am I missing here? Major impacts on the game? Are we even talking about the same game?

Not the most destructive (there have certainly been far more destructive), but RR is certainly one of the most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Heck, even pve is one big exploit.

Completely different topic/thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

An exploit becomes a problem when your actions hurt someone else. The RR crap doesn't even have victims.

Of course it does. What about people who care about the economy? I'm more concerned with the game though. What about the integrity of the game as a whole?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

How did it have a major impact on the game? Unless you were botting RR, a single human player simply would be physically unable to remain at the keyboard for 24 hours straight RRing enough to amass an amount of coins/keys/faction/gold/whatever that would be construed to have a major impact. IMO, duping and mapping to the guild hall from pre-searing had bigger impacts. The majority of players who RRed left with a little extra gold, a few keys and a couple of hours of mindless "fun". Only a small percentage of players who RRed might have amassed a fortune large enough to have an impact on the overall economy of the game.

Again, I didn't say RR was the most destructive (as you mentioned duping etc was more destructive). But when you have such a large amount of people doing it, it has an effect regardless of how big or small it is. And it isn't just an effect in that way...(see my response to Sankt). For example: why would people play the game normally when they can exploit and get twice as much in half the time? Game integrity my friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

OK, so we're establishing the economy (or threats to it, eg: Ebony Citadel of Mallyx) as a possible condition for using the banstick. I'm with you here. However, we need a threshold condition for what's bannable and what's not. See below.

I believe the economy is one reason, but not the only reason. Basically if somebody discovers an exploit that has a negative effect on the game as a whole, Anet has to solve the problem somehow. If they don't have the power to fix it through changing the game, then they have to do it through dealing with those involved.

The only reason this thread still exists is because people realize that Anet doesn't really solve problems. Instead they take a long time to temporarily solve an issue, until another issue comes up with the exact same problem. Instead of attacking the core problem, they attack the issues around it to no effect because the problem comes back up in another form. Ok I may be a bit confusing and on a tangent now though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I think you may be overstating the case for RR a bit. The reason it threatened the economy was because it was permitted to go on for so long. If the exploit had been closed quickly, no harm would have been done.

True, but I also think the exploit was bad due to how widespread it was. Duping was VERY limited in comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

How do I tell the difference between a legitimate money-making enterprise and an exploit?

Duping did ugly things to the economy. But the second-ugliest run of inflation this game has ever seen has resulted from UWSC. I don't think we can make an argument that UWSC is a bannable offense. Needs to be removed? Sure. Bannable? There's a whole can of worms.

We can not compare UWSC with RR or duping. UWSC is a balance issue. Balance issues are supposed to be solved by the creators. Nobody gets banned for abusing balance problems. The company simply has to solve them for the good of their game.

RR is not a balance issue, it is an exploit. Going into a PvP area and resigning is not the way the game is meant to be played. If the company can not solve the problem, what other choice is there? Allow the exploiters to continue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

There's more to this than effects. If you're messing with the client, you're gone. If you're messing with the economy, maybe you're gone and maybe you're not. What separates those two camps?

It depends on how you are messing with the economy.

Overall though I don't really care. I understand what you are saying. I honestly could care less if the exploiters get banned. The only reason I even entered this thread is to help point out the incompetence of Anet showing (once again). I'm not always critical of them...I have pointed out the good things about them. But there have been things over the years that are just ridiculous, and I think this incident is one of them.

Fril Estelin · Oct 22, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Not the most destructive (there have certainly been far more destructive), but RR is certainly one of the most.

Can I just ask in passing what you base these "(guess)estimations" on?